CA's in Canada are viewed in the top echelon of professionals but the pay isn't very good. You start at around 35k and with 5 years experience you'll about double that to 70k, thats if you stay in audit. You'll make a little more in specialized services. This is for a work week of about 40-45 hrs.
CA + CFA
- Thread starter Sims
- Start date
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torontosimpleguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sims Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Intersting, why do you think in the US public
> > accounting is not viewed as a desirable
> profession
> > as in Canada?
>
> IMHO the reason is that to get CA in Canada you
> have to be full-time student studying relevant
> curriculum. Here how the supply of CA to the
> market is restrained, which keeps their salaries
> high.
>
> In USA you can study the curriculum part-time.
> It�s much easier for career switch, which creates
> oversupply of CPA and keeps their salaries low.
>
> You can see the same tendency in CGA, which are
> allowed to study part-time and this designation is
> considered easier and less prestigious.
>
> Btw, the same goes to lawyers. In Canada you have
> to be a full-time law student to be accepted to
> the bar exam whereas in USA you can be a part-time
> student. There are a lot of IT guys in the States
> that study the patent law part time.
I agree the CGA is a little less prestigious but the fact that you can get the CGA (and CMA) part time should be a wash in the accountant market over the fact that you have to be full time for the CA as is most companies a CGA and CA is interchangable.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sims Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Intersting, why do you think in the US public
> > accounting is not viewed as a desirable
> profession
> > as in Canada?
>
> IMHO the reason is that to get CA in Canada you
> have to be full-time student studying relevant
> curriculum. Here how the supply of CA to the
> market is restrained, which keeps their salaries
> high.
>
> In USA you can study the curriculum part-time.
> It�s much easier for career switch, which creates
> oversupply of CPA and keeps their salaries low.
>
> You can see the same tendency in CGA, which are
> allowed to study part-time and this designation is
> considered easier and less prestigious.
>
> Btw, the same goes to lawyers. In Canada you have
> to be a full-time law student to be accepted to
> the bar exam whereas in USA you can be a part-time
> student. There are a lot of IT guys in the States
> that study the patent law part time.
I agree the CGA is a little less prestigious but the fact that you can get the CGA (and CMA) part time should be a wash in the accountant market over the fact that you have to be full time for the CA as is most companies a CGA and CA is interchangable.
torontosimpleguy
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- Oct 10, 2006
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Btw, I should add to career-switchers the stream of immigrants coming to Canada in mature age that can't afford to be full-time students.
torontosimpleguy, interesting point about the ability to change careers by obtaining CPA in the US. However, at least on the audit side, there is a great deal of age discrimination at the Big 4, similar to finance. In my experience, there were very few people in their first few years in the business (associate/senior associate ranks) that were any older than 27 or so. Basically, everyone around me had graduated and began pursuing their career in public accounting immediately.
Nonetheless I do not believe that accountants are in "oversupply" as you said. The large firms are all desperate for people.
Nonetheless I do not believe that accountants are in "oversupply" as you said. The large firms are all desperate for people.
torontosimpleguy
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- Oct 10, 2006
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Look at this forum. How many participants here who are taking the CFA path in order to change their careers? Lots. How many people would study CFA if it required being a full-time student? Much-much less but prestige of the designation would increase.
torontosimpleguy
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- Oct 10, 2006
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On the other hand, you may be right and I should rather talk in terms of �barriers to entry� then in terms of �supply and demand�.
Alexandrov
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- Oct 11, 2006
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Your information is slightly off.
In general out of undergrad, as a junior staff accountant here in Canada the starting salary is 45k+ if you are with a big 4, and around low to mid 40s if you are with a small or mid sized firm.
Here is the break down on CA fact for Canada (regarding pay scale, positions, etc)
The Money & The Numbers
Chartered Accountants - Making $$$ & Sense
CAs work everywhere
There are over 31,000 CAs in Ontario and over 68,000 in Canada
Over 66% work outside accounting firms, in industries such as high tech, sports, entertainment, aerospace, finance, pharmaceuticals, etc.
1 in 5 are entrepreneurs
CAs are business leaders
The Globe & Mail's Report on Business reports that more than half of the Top 1,000 companies have a CA in one of their highest five positions (Chair, President, CEO, CFO, COO)
1 in 3 CAs sit on a Board of Directors
CAs hold top positions in diverse organizations such as Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment, Research in Motion, TSX, Foster Parents Plan, and thousands of others
Show me the money
The median salary for a first year CA in the GTA is $72,000
63% of Ontario CAs earn over $100,000
The average CA earns over $168,000
The median salary for a Canadian CA outside North America is over $178,000
The CA designation is your passport
There are over 2,500 Ontario CAs working abroad
There are over 1,200 Ontario CAs working in the U.S.
Only the Canadian CA has reciprocity with the majority of our trading partners
Other than American CPAs, only Canadian CAs can sign financial statements for companies traded in U.S. capital markets
In general out of undergrad, as a junior staff accountant here in Canada the starting salary is 45k+ if you are with a big 4, and around low to mid 40s if you are with a small or mid sized firm.
Here is the break down on CA fact for Canada (regarding pay scale, positions, etc)
The Money & The Numbers
Chartered Accountants - Making $$$ & Sense
CAs work everywhere
There are over 31,000 CAs in Ontario and over 68,000 in Canada
Over 66% work outside accounting firms, in industries such as high tech, sports, entertainment, aerospace, finance, pharmaceuticals, etc.
1 in 5 are entrepreneurs
CAs are business leaders
The Globe & Mail's Report on Business reports that more than half of the Top 1,000 companies have a CA in one of their highest five positions (Chair, President, CEO, CFO, COO)
1 in 3 CAs sit on a Board of Directors
CAs hold top positions in diverse organizations such as Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment, Research in Motion, TSX, Foster Parents Plan, and thousands of others
Show me the money
The median salary for a first year CA in the GTA is $72,000
63% of Ontario CAs earn over $100,000
The average CA earns over $168,000
The median salary for a Canadian CA outside North America is over $178,000
The CA designation is your passport
There are over 2,500 Ontario CAs working abroad
There are over 1,200 Ontario CAs working in the U.S.
Only the Canadian CA has reciprocity with the majority of our trading partners
Other than American CPAs, only Canadian CAs can sign financial statements for companies traded in U.S. capital markets
Alexandrov
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- Oct 11, 2006
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This msg was for Sims.
And the working hours between January-May are about 14hrs/day 7 days a week. Then again in the summer you have a lot of short days for golf as well
And the working hours between January-May are about 14hrs/day 7 days a week. Then again in the summer you have a lot of short days for golf as well
- Thread starter
- #9
thx alexandrov
i have seen the CA sales pitch before.
what does numbers don't say is that :
-first year CA has 2 years experience and studied 4 years undergrad. I that time you can earn a 3 year undergrad, gain 3 years experience and make around the same, in the GTA.
- the average CA earn $162k: thats very good, exept the average CA also has 20 years experience (think baby boomers and the decreasing popularity of the CA) and the figure is also boosted by Partners in accounting firms working crazy hours and raking in over $350k.
I not saying CA is no good. Its the best to work in accounting in Canada (slightly over CGA and CMA). But the Order make it look like if its the world.
i have seen the CA sales pitch before.
what does numbers don't say is that :
-first year CA has 2 years experience and studied 4 years undergrad. I that time you can earn a 3 year undergrad, gain 3 years experience and make around the same, in the GTA.
- the average CA earn $162k: thats very good, exept the average CA also has 20 years experience (think baby boomers and the decreasing popularity of the CA) and the figure is also boosted by Partners in accounting firms working crazy hours and raking in over $350k.
I not saying CA is no good. Its the best to work in accounting in Canada (slightly over CGA and CMA). But the Order make it look like if its the world.
Alexandrov
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- Oct 11, 2006
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You would be surprised to know that those numbers are actually fairly accurate after talking to a bunch of people who are practicing.
However a lot of it IS hype and part of the new CA ad campaign which is trying to lure in more students to go for the designation since it's in high demand right now because of SOX.
It's pretty brutal for people like me who have been in accounting since the get go to see a lot of older people and kids with different undergrads coming and finishing the required CA courses part time. Before when the big 4 would hold info sessions at my school, the attendance would be around 200. This year, there were over 600 people attending, and the applications for internships and full time are through the roof
Then again, with any lucrative career it's a challenge and it definitely isn't an easy path. I am glad the accounting courses are rigorous enough for people to drop out half way through realizing it's not for them, and when they also quit their jobs when they end up working 80+ hour weeks during the busy season and can't handle it.
However a lot of it IS hype and part of the new CA ad campaign which is trying to lure in more students to go for the designation since it's in high demand right now because of SOX.
It's pretty brutal for people like me who have been in accounting since the get go to see a lot of older people and kids with different undergrads coming and finishing the required CA courses part time. Before when the big 4 would hold info sessions at my school, the attendance would be around 200. This year, there were over 600 people attending, and the applications for internships and full time are through the roof
Then again, with any lucrative career it's a challenge and it definitely isn't an easy path. I am glad the accounting courses are rigorous enough for people to drop out half way through realizing it's not for them, and when they also quit their jobs when they end up working 80+ hour weeks during the busy season and can't handle it.
Alexandrov
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- Oct 11, 2006
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And regarding partners, their average pay in Ontario was pushing close to 300k (the stats are available at www.icao.on.ca) so it definitely is skewing the numbers.
- Thread starter
- #13
You also have to remember that the average includes CFOs that make well over 300 or 350k and successful entrepreneurs that make astronomical figures. Remove the outliers and the average will drop drasticly to a level where a lot of people that have a business (or other lucrative degree) undergrad make after 20 years experience.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at Thursday, October 12, 2006 at 05:20PM by Sims.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at Thursday, October 12, 2006 at 05:20PM by Sims.
Nightshade
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- Aug 30, 2006
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As a non-CPA, non-CA (but worked with both CPAs and CAs a lot and even looked at the CPA books) and a CPA equivalent from a third country I can say:
The CPA is an entry level exam. Sometimes refered to as primary school exam in accounting (sorry no offense). People from around the world who want to quickly obtain an accounting designation to work in audit (and then elsewhere) usually obtain the designation. To pass the exam, it basically requires no thinking, no judgement but just memorizing the review book stuff. So many CPAs pass the exam every year that it can hardly be difficult. Even Americans admit that it does not prepare you for the complexities of US GAAP. That is not to say that I haven't met intelligent and brilliant CPAs.
In the US, unfortunately sometimes not so bright people choose the accounting profession unlike in other countries. And they pass the CPA exam! The Harvards etc. choose to go elsewhere. Furthermore, the BIG 4 are desperate for people. There was an article about one to two years ago in the Economist.
The CA (Canada and UK) is definately a harder exam and the CAs I worked with are mostly employable (meaning not so bad I would immediately sack them).
The CPA is an entry level exam. Sometimes refered to as primary school exam in accounting (sorry no offense). People from around the world who want to quickly obtain an accounting designation to work in audit (and then elsewhere) usually obtain the designation. To pass the exam, it basically requires no thinking, no judgement but just memorizing the review book stuff. So many CPAs pass the exam every year that it can hardly be difficult. Even Americans admit that it does not prepare you for the complexities of US GAAP. That is not to say that I haven't met intelligent and brilliant CPAs.
In the US, unfortunately sometimes not so bright people choose the accounting profession unlike in other countries. And they pass the CPA exam! The Harvards etc. choose to go elsewhere. Furthermore, the BIG 4 are desperate for people. There was an article about one to two years ago in the Economist.
The CA (Canada and UK) is definately a harder exam and the CAs I worked with are mostly employable (meaning not so bad I would immediately sack them).
L2 Candidate
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- Aug 21, 2006
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To be 100% honest, I think that CA's and CPA's are quite comparable.
The requirements to attain are quite similar (University degree, pass uniform exam and attain work experience). An entry level CPA is equal to an entry level CA (and for that matter entry level CGA's and CMA's in Canada). People are right to say that most people could get one of these designations, but experience in the indusrty is really what seperates the quality accountants from the not great ones, not the designation they receive. I work with several CA's at all levels of experience and to be honest I am shocked at how some of them could have made it through the program with their lack of common business sense.
I think CA's and CPA's are just considered in industry to be "better" because they are more well known and the oldest designations. Give it a few years and a few more scandals by these designations and I am sure other professional accounting designations will gain some ground.
As for more international people taking CPA vs. CA, I just think this is a factor that CPA is relatively well known internationally as an accounting designation while CA is more restircted to countries that have CA programs.
As for the actual test. Saying the CPA requires only memorization of review materials is a bit of a stretch as the four years in Univesity with a concentration in accounting/business lays the framework for the material covered in the exam. I think the only thing that makes the CA exam a bit harder is it is taken once a year in a single session vs. anytime and in any order for the CPA.
The requirements to attain are quite similar (University degree, pass uniform exam and attain work experience). An entry level CPA is equal to an entry level CA (and for that matter entry level CGA's and CMA's in Canada). People are right to say that most people could get one of these designations, but experience in the indusrty is really what seperates the quality accountants from the not great ones, not the designation they receive. I work with several CA's at all levels of experience and to be honest I am shocked at how some of them could have made it through the program with their lack of common business sense.
I think CA's and CPA's are just considered in industry to be "better" because they are more well known and the oldest designations. Give it a few years and a few more scandals by these designations and I am sure other professional accounting designations will gain some ground.
As for more international people taking CPA vs. CA, I just think this is a factor that CPA is relatively well known internationally as an accounting designation while CA is more restircted to countries that have CA programs.
As for the actual test. Saying the CPA requires only memorization of review materials is a bit of a stretch as the four years in Univesity with a concentration in accounting/business lays the framework for the material covered in the exam. I think the only thing that makes the CA exam a bit harder is it is taken once a year in a single session vs. anytime and in any order for the CPA.
Nightshade, CPA is not a designation, it is a license to practice public accounting and in most states one must have 2+ years of experience.
The CA exam may well be more difficult, but the CPA exam is not a primary school exam. The pass rates are consistently below 50% and not too far off from other difficult exams like Bar exams and CFA. Pass rates were around 30% before they changed formats, but the recent results show that it is still a challeging exam.
Page 4 of the pdf in this link shows some recent CPA pass rates:
http://www.cpa-exam.org/alerts/download/dec_jan05_5.pdf
The CA exam may well be more difficult, but the CPA exam is not a primary school exam. The pass rates are consistently below 50% and not too far off from other difficult exams like Bar exams and CFA. Pass rates were around 30% before they changed formats, but the recent results show that it is still a challeging exam.
Page 4 of the pdf in this link shows some recent CPA pass rates:
http://www.cpa-exam.org/alerts/download/dec_jan05_5.pdf
Nightshade
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- Aug 30, 2006
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Good point L2 candidate. I was referring mainly to the CPA exam and not the education requirements. The CPA exam is perceived by many as a memorizing test. Furthermore, some states do not require very stringent education requirements (say New Hampshire).
Also, most UK CAs have non-business majors (I have met people with mathematics, IT, history etc. degrees). That's why it takes longer for most to get it.
And a CPA never prepares you for US GAAP. CPA without work experience is worthless. I always wonder how can you have the most complicated accounting rules and such an exam.
Also, most UK CAs have non-business majors (I have met people with mathematics, IT, history etc. degrees). That's why it takes longer for most to get it.
And a CPA never prepares you for US GAAP. CPA without work experience is worthless. I always wonder how can you have the most complicated accounting rules and such an exam.
Nightshade Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And a CPA never prepares you for US GAAP. CPA
> without work experience is worthless. I always
> wonder how can you have the most complicated
> accounting rules and such an exam.
CFA is also worthless without work experience. Just browse this forum to see.
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> And a CPA never prepares you for US GAAP. CPA
> without work experience is worthless. I always
> wonder how can you have the most complicated
> accounting rules and such an exam.
CFA is also worthless without work experience. Just browse this forum to see.