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Big Nodge

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So I've recently completed the cfa program, and I'm looking at ways to continue developing my skill set. I have finance / econ majors from undergrad and am currently doing credit research in risk management. I've been here less than a year and I like it, I'll probably stay at least another year before I start looking. My ultimate near-term goal is to work in credit research on the buy side, in fixed income, so my ideal next position would be a research associate or assistant. I�m considering other roles as well, of course, as those jobs are obviously very competitive.

In the meantime, I�ve been continuing to develop my excel and Bloomberg skills, building models with api, etc, and networking with alumni in my area. Beyond that, I�ve been thinking of working on my quant / stats skills, given that I�m interested in fixed income. My stats knowledge doesn�t go far beyond the cfa curriculum. I�m not ready to start a grad program, so I�m wondering if there are any other options worth considering. Our quant recommended finding a course that includes some hands on experience with some stats tools, like S Plus, which seems like a good idea.

So, what I�m wondering now, is if it�s worthwhile to consider taking a few courses here and there at local universities? I�m in Boston, so there are plenty, but MIT also offers a lot of course notes for free on their website. Given that I won�t be in a program, is there any advantage to enrolling in an actual class and receiving a grade, versus working through the material on my own? I figure neither will add much, if anything, to my resume, so I�m thinking just go the free route. I would have to be able to get my hands on a student version of S Plus though. Here is an example of an MIT course online I was looking at.

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Sloan-School-of-Management/15-075Applied-StatisticsSpring2003/CourseHome/index.htm

Any and all thoughts are welcome. Of course I�d like something that will add to my resume, just don�t know if that�s realistic without enrolling in a program.
 
If you are in Boston, try Harvard Extension School. It is geared toward working professionals that would like to continue their education. You can take graduate evening courses at your leisure, which can be applied to a graduate degree or graduate certificate. Harvard just introduced a Master's of Liberal Arts in Management. Cost is around $1500 per course.


http://www.extension.harvard.edu/management/
 
Thanks, I will check it out. However, I remeber seeing a poster here say that if he saw HES on a resume he would "laugh it out of the office". So, if I end up doing this just to learn I might stick with the free stuff from MIT.
 
Big Nodge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks, I will check it out. However, I remeber
> seeing a poster here say that if he saw HES on a
> resume he would "laugh it out of the office".

Some people on this board are just full of it with an overbloated sense of self importance. All knowledge is good, just don't oversell it when you go for an interview or in your resume.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at Thursday, September 21, 2006 at 02:29PM by CFAAtlanta.
 
I would laugh a DEGREE from HES out of the office - particularly if the applicant were claiming it to be a "Harvard" degree. I can imagine that a certain percentage of those who get that management graduate degree claim a "Harvard" MBA.

But if you had a legitimate undergraduate degree, and then put on your resume that you went to HES for a specialized calculus class, or something, that's perfectly o.k.
 
i used to live in boston. HES sometimes gets a bad rap because some students that take classes there do like to tell people they go to harvard, without making the distinction. they kinda ruin it for everybody...at least that's my take.

i remember my buddy's girlfriend moved from texas to boston and told everyone it was primarily because she had gotten accepted into harvard's grad school, and secondly to be in the same city as my friend. she talked it up a lot; we all thought she was this really smart chick for a while. turned out she was just taking classes at HES, and eventually dropped out. now she works at some clothing store on newbury street. but man, did she ever used to love telling people she went to harvard. idiot.
 
Big Nodge Wrote:
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> However, I remeber seeing a poster here say that if he saw HES on a
> resume he would "laugh it out of the office".


I read that too... my thoughts, most of the criticism relates to the open enrollment nature of the program, specifically the undergrad program. The traditional Harvard student argument is usually two fold; by having open enrollment it dilutes the exclusive nature of Harvard and a portion of the program can be completed by taking classes from non-Harvard professors.

I believe both arguments are disguised under the cloak of elitism. However, to address the issue... one can enroll in only Harvard-professor classes and if successfully completed, deserves credit for the accomplishment.

Keep in mind; most of the criticism is focused on the undergrad program. The extension school was created specifically for individuals that, like you, would like to continue education in some fashion and receive course credit for the effort.

Given your desire to take a course for credit, not enroll in a full time program, but still be able to acknowledge the class on your resume, it seems like the program is a fit. Just remember, do what is right for you, not what someone else might think about it.

Also, with the CFA Charter under your belt, I seriously doubt you will ever be laughed out anyone's office. Good luck!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at Thursday, September 21, 2006 at 02:54PM by hueion.
 
The Extension School exists to provide a high-quality education to those who want the EDUCATION; if you're in school for the brand-name, it's a very poor choice. And I think they like to keep it that way. As a learning experience, especially adjusted for cost, it is practically unrivaled. But the degree is really barely worth the paper it's printed on.
 
True enough, thanks all. I went to BC for undergrad, so while certainly not 1st tier I think it's pretty well respected, and well-represented in town for sure.

And I certainly wouldn't sell it as anything other than what it is, nor do I have any real interest in a degree from HES. I want to get some experience with statistical software packages and maybe refresh my math skills, as I haven't taken calc since high school. I plan on doing an MBA at some point as well, but we'll see.

Also, just to be clear, I've passed all three exams but don't have my charter yet. I should sometime after October assuming everything goes smoothly with my membership application. Thanks again.
 
Hey Big Nodge -

I checked out that syllabus from the MIT course. It looks like a fine course with some nice notes. I don't know anything about the prof though. There are lots of very useful statistical techniques taught in the course, although it seems more geared to social science than finance. You will be a god to anybody you know doing research in psychology if you master that stuff.

In a course like that you need to really wade in with software and data. It's time-consuming because there are always mucky-muck things you need to do to get the data into the program and write your computer code. If the course is done well, it will eat up lots of your time.

My sister took courses at HES. If the person who laughed at HES wants to laugh at my sister, s/he better be pretty smart and able to stand their ground. She's smacked me around a time or two. (My sister has multiple Ivy League degrees including a Ph.D.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at Thursday, September 21, 2006 at 03:50PM by JoeyDVivre.
 
Thanks for the input.

Considering that I'm not and will never be a quant, generally what sort of math and stats courses would you recommend for someone looking to be proficient in the major concepts important to portfolio management, specifically fixed income?
 
Big Nodge, unless you're a major quant, I would be surprised if you really need to use very high level statistics in fixed income research/management. My experience is limited to one firm, but, outside of the quant people, I have not seen anything employed that is higher level than what you learned in the CFA program. Maybe others have a different opinion...
 
Thanks grunt, I guess I've found that while the cfa stuff is a solid foundation, I don't use it much in my day-to-day job (all fundamental research) so I want to stay fluent. Also, sometimes I feel like for the cfa I learned what I needed to know to pass the tests, but could stand to spend some more time applying the material like you would in a college or grad course. That certainly makes the MIT self-study (free) route more appealing.

Would you be interested in exchanging email addresses? I know you've got a lot going on, but I like to stay in touch with local people on the buy side. Plus, I'm curious about those aramco people you know.
 
Save your money and probably go for an MBA at a top school or something of that nature (MSc/MFE at top school etc...). This is probably the most efficient way to spend education money. Piece-meal work is probably not going to be worth it to transition to another area of finance.

For specific knowledge, try talking to people who are in the area that you are interested in and see what they recommend. This is by far the best approach. Perhaps someone could comment on the PRM courses relating to Fixed Income. Probably not something that I would put on a CV, but could be useful to grasp some of the knowledge (someone more familier with these and similar courses might want to comment).

If you are serious about networking, you should focus a great deal of your efforts on networking and getting to know people in Fixed Income and related work.
 
BN,

The quant courses at HES struck me as more geared toward teachers.

Other options you might look into include continuing ed at Northeastern, BU, and BC.

Where you take courses / how you approach this depends on what your goals are. You have already proven you are disciplined and can handle a self study program by completing 3 levels of the CFA (congratulations by the way).

If you are looking for knowledge, consider developing another course for yourself - find the best books / resources (MIT being a great start) and set a timeline.

If your future plans include grad school and you lack statistics / calculus / quant background, then the grade and paper you get by completing a formal course will help your application. If you are looking at an MFE / quant heavy MSF, then they will probably want to see some documentation from an institution that you have experience.

For what it's worth, I'm in this boat and have researched many of the area programs. I need both the knowledge and the paper, and to me Metropolitan College at BU seems to be the best bet- Stats through grad level, linear algebra, etc. Cherry pick the classes you need and run with it.

Good luck!
 
Thanks Onegin, I agree that the HES stats classes didn't seem to fit the bill. Their main stats offering is not taught by a Harvard professor, and the others were geared towards teaching, like you said. So I might work through some of the MIT Applied Stats class on my own.

As far as grad school, an mba is what I'm interested in so I think my quant background is sufficient. However, I may consider enrolling in some calculus courses, as I took AP in high school and passed out of math requirements in college. Seemed great at the time, but now I haven't looked at calculus in years.
 
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