GMCR

The Righteous H

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I’m from Vermont originally but I don’t understand what the deal is with this stock. It came up on a screen of things I’m looking to short.
Anyone care to explain it’s meteoric rise lately and how that’s gonna go?
 
It’s a razor and blade model and the Street is expecting large growth in high margin k-cup sales as the install base fills in and the company expands distribution via WMT and others, and benefits from a licensing agreement with SBUX, etc. I also looked at it as a short some time ago but 1) it appears to have large growth coming, and 2) the company is a marketing machine and is very selective about who they talk to (wouldn’t take my call after 3 attempts) – they clearly understand how to use the sell side as a mouthpiece.
To short this, you would have to take a stab at the ultimate size of install base and what that implies for annuity k-cup sales, and then apply an appropriate multiple. Probably a fair amount of guess work with a large margin for error…
 
Not to mention they have a monopoly in the market
I think they own the patent rights to the Keurig machines?
 
They are the guys that make the sealed cups you put into the coffeemaker, and coffee comes out.
I thought it was kind of a silly idea when I first saw it, but apparently it’s done well. It’s perfect for public places like reception areas etc.
 
I wouldn’t stand in the way of this. I know too many coffee drinkers that have switched to the single cup machines and love GMCR and Keurig.
Sure, the stock is expensive, and if/when they miss earnings the momentum play will end (see NFLX), but that’s not a good reason to short.
 
Yep as expected, they own both the machines and the k-cups businesses:
Green Mountain Coffee Roasters, Inc. is engaged in the specialty coffee and coffee maker businesses. The Company operates in two business segments: the Specialty Coffee business unit (SCBU) and the Keurig business unit (Keurig). SCBU sources, produces and sells more than 200 varieties of coffee, cocoa, teas and other beverages in K-Cup portion packs and coffee in more traditional packaging, including whole bean and ground coffee selections in bags and ground coffee in fractional packs, for use both at-home (AH) and away-from-home (AFH). Keurig is a manufacturer of gourmet single-cup brewing systems, targets its premium single-cup brewing systems for use both AH and AFH, mainly in North America. Its primary sales is from its Keurig single-cup brewing system, which includes its Keurig single-cup brewer, K-Cup portion packs used by the system, as well as related accessories. In May 2010, the Company acquired Diedrich Coffee, Inc.
And from what I know, they have a patent on the individual coffee cup brewing technology, which is why you don’t see any competitors for the Keurig machines..
 
Ok, when I grew up I had a ski house in Stowe, VT up the street from where they were founded. They served the coffee at the mountain. Basically a ben and jerry’s for coffee.
16 billion dollars?!!?!?!?
The patent is interesting; sounds like sodastream for coffee.
But how long can they really prevent someone from coming in and competing with this idea or creating a substitute for it.
16 billion, wow.
In any case, I’m gonna go back up to Stowe and see what kind of bs expensive local project hippies are selling now and give them a million dollars in seed capital.
 
True.
Well, Vermont’s hippies are also known to sell other, less legal things, if you are the risk averse, averse type.
 
If you go to their website, you can see that their business is quite diversified. They are like a coffee-themed conglomerate. In addition to making those weird brewing machines, they operate coffee store chains, sell packaged coffee, and produce those ubiquitous little sealed creamer cups. They also have a tea brand (which incidentally, I am drinking right now). I probably would not have guessed that they’re worth $16 billion, but it’s definitely not all from making weird coffee robots.
 
Haha, indeed, they’re well positioned to ride the retro trend. I hear they’ve cornered the walkman market.
 
ChickenTikka Wrote:
——————————————————-
> 16 billion dollars?!!?!?!?
>
> The patent is interesting; sounds like sodastream
> for coffee.
>
> But how long can they really prevent someone from
> coming in and competing with this idea or creating
> a substitute for it.
>
> 16 billion, wow.
The cups cost something like $0.75 each to the end-user, and GMCR pockets a good chunk of that, though I forget what the number is. We have a keurig where I work, and everyone in the office drinks 2-3 cups per day of coffee or tea. In fact, we’re on our 3rd machine because the first two wore out from overuse. The stock is trading at $108 not because people are crazy (although that statement describes many things in life), but because they are still rolling out the machines and will have a fantastic and growing annuity stream for a long time. Once you have a keurig, there is pretty much no other reason to own another coffee machine. Kraft and someone else made knock off machines with discs (to get around the cup patent), and we bought and tried those as well, but they definitely weren’t as good as the keurig, nor did they have the selection of flavors. That’s why it’s worth $16B. Would be a dangerous stock to short even at this valuation.
EDIT: SODA, on the other hand, was a fantastic short. We bought and tried that one as well. What a joke.
 
The options on it are quite expensive as well.
Why do you think it would be dangerous to short? Do you see it going to 32 bilion dollars anytime soon?
This kind of valuation reminds me of NFLX. It’s the kind of stock where it could be worth a lot more but we dont really know. On the other hand it could lose half its value if earnings estimates change a little and still be a really big player.
In this market, where I feel we are likely to have a big move down at some point in the next 6 months, it seems to me like you’d want to have one of those asymmetrical short positions.
I’ve shorted the following stock this year:
BAC
NFLX
RIMM
LNKD
MTL
So far I’ve been right on three of them, although I must admit that I’m not happy with my return. It’s really pretty hard to make money on the way down.
I didn’t short SODA but thought about it. Sad I missed that.
What about Bidu? I’m looking for any other massively assymetrical downside stocks. I want something where if the fit hits the shan I can really cash in. Appreciate any ideas!
 
My point was that the stock trades on expected future annuity value of the install base. If you want to short it, you need to believe that either 1) the entire concept is bunk, or 2) the concept is real but won’t catch on to the degree expected (and therefore the 100x multiple is predicated on nothing but hopes and dreams).
If I were going to short this company, the inquiry would be bracketing that value within a reasonable range, discounting it back at an appropriate rate, and then comparing that to the stock price. I’m not sure what the current stock price discounts in terms of future annuity value because I haven’t done the math problem.
The reason I haven’t done the math is because, IMO, there are too many moving variables get a good picture, and I wouldn’t want to argue with a market that is inclined to believe the “story” (nor with a company that manipulates its stock price by not taking calls from the buy side, and being in bed with the sell side). It seems to me that you could spend a lot of time guessing and still not come up with a firm answer, which doesn’t fit my research criteria for “return on invested time.”
Further, I think the keurig is fantastic and, unlike SODA, is not a fad concept, so I would be inclined to pass until it looked like the story was petering out. Shorting into a long running growth story in relatively early innings is a good way to lose money. If I had to guess off the top of my head, this is probably in the 4th or 5th inning at the latest (though I don’t have any specific numbers to back that up).
Anyway, to me asymmetric short profiles are ones that are likely to go down a lot but “can’t” go up more than the current valuation for definable, fundamentally-based reasons – that has nothing to do with what the market does or doesn’t do. GMCR doesn’t fit that profile. Stocks like HEV, where the business is dead in the water but where the stock is trading high on hype, are good profiles.
 
bromion Wrote:
> Once you have a keurig,
> there is pretty much no other reason to own
> another coffee machine. Kraft and someone else
> made knock off machines with discs (to get around
> the cup patent), and we bought and tried those as
> well, but they definitely weren’t as good as the
> keurig, nor did they have the selection of
> flavors.
Are you referring to the Flavia machines? We have one here in our local office. I feel they’re pretty much the same, but then again I’m not coffee connoiseur.
 
There’s a couple, one is from Kraft I think and the other is from Philips. I forgot the names. We tried them all and the keurig was definitely better in terms of selection, taste, and functionality (one of the other ones broke after like 3 weeks). Are there competitors? Sure. Last time I checked though, which was over a year ago, no other product was seriously making in roads. Maybe that has changed, I don’t know.
 
My dad and my three brothers are doctors. I called them. Each one of them has one of these keurig machines in their office. I’ve been gone for a long time. Gee, the world can change if you move to India for 5 years.
 
Yeah, we are on our third machine because they keep wearing out from overuse. 6 people * avg 2 to 4 cups a day per person * ~$0.75 per cup = winning recurring rev stream. It’s a great small office concept.
 
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