Middle to Front Office

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mni

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Since you are working with the traders already, why can't you ask them directly?
 
i;m not sure if the above comment was directed to me ...but right now i dont have any interaction with traders ..i work @ a custodian ..
 
I am sorry Rudeboi. That question was for BJ
 
I can appreciate your situation as I was there 3 years ago. I got lucky and landed a gig as a trader on a fixed income fund management team at a major mutual fund firm. The buy side is very different than the sell side in that career paths tend to be less structured. Bottom line is, in your "middle office" role, you aren't learning about trading, managing portfolios, analyzing securities, etc. If someone is looking for a experienced candidate I don't think there is much you'll be able to say to convince them you are the right man. I've been through it.

You need an opportunity where someone is willing to take a shot on someone who is bright (ie can be taught easily) and is fun to work with. I had 2 of the CFA exams under my belt when I got my "shot", but I really believe they saw me as a personality they would like to have around. When you work so closely with other people on a trading desk, being able to get along and have some fun during down time is important.

And to respond to someone's comment that buy side traders are mere executors, while I think is some cases this is true (see it here in the group next to us), that is definitely not true for all. We are expected to know what is going on in the market and are actively included in strategy discussions. You will lose respect very quickly if you have nothing intelligent to say.
 
L2Buysider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can appreciate your situation as I was there 3
> years ago. I got lucky and landed a gig as a
> trader on a fixed income fund management team at a
> major mutual fund firm. The buy side is very
> different than the sell side in that career paths
> tend to be less structured. Bottom line is, in
> your "middle office" role, you aren't learning
> about trading, managing portfolios, analyzing
> securities, etc. If someone is looking for a
> experienced candidate I don't think there is much
> you'll be able to say to convince them you are the
> right man. I've been through it.
>
> You need an opportunity where someone is willing
> to take a shot on someone who is bright (ie can be
> taught easily) and is fun to work with. I had 2 of
> the CFA exams under my belt when I got my "shot",
> but I really believe they saw me as a personality
> they would like to have around. When you work so
> closely with other people on a trading desk, being
> able to get along and have some fun during down
> time is important.
>
> And to respond to someone's comment that buy side
> traders are mere executors, while I think is some
> cases this is true (see it here in the group next
> to us), that is definitely not true for all. We
> are expected to know what is going on in the
> market and are actively included in strategy
> discussions. You will lose respect very quickly if
> you have nothing intelligent to say.


May I ask what type of work you do at a mutual fund company. I feel that buy side and sell side trader are very different. I am a trader myself, though I am really embarassed to call myself that. All I do all day is to execute trades since I work at an asset management company. Thanks.
 
why do you imply that a buy side trader is not analytical? The execution trader is not a trader at all. Who makes a decision at the buy side shops? Portfolio Managers. They are real traders. They just say buy\sell and give orders. The so called traders merely execute transactions. On the sell side, traders are usually desk analysts - they read news, reports. The execution trader is called a salesman. Desk analysts give quotes, then a "trader" follows the price list. That's how I get that difference from my modest experience.
 
I definately have spoken with a lot of them, but I am supporting a Sec Lending trading desk. While it is trading, it is mostly focused on execution (just to add to that fire).

Which I interview, I am mostly forced to focus on what I have acomplished in this group, and people are usually impressed with that. However, because I have no technical finance related experience, I usually lose out to a candidate that has that type of experience (even though they are coming from a second-tier shop, while I am transferring internally).

For Rudeboi, I would suggest taking the position that you can find, but focus on getting out in about a year. I am not one to talk, but it is very easy to get pigeon-holed. I got this position straight from school, so I cannot provide too much from a feedback perspective.
 
I don't think there was ever a debate between the roles and risk taken by buy side and sell side traders, hence the prestige and compensation gap.

As far as being a mere execution trader, sounds like the PMs don't have much confidence in their traders at Luchano's shop. Actually, I think he is referring to a completely different role. There is a group that sits next to us that doesn't even have PMs sitting with them. They get trades fed over a system and they just pick up the phone and execute.

As a member of a fund management team, I am expected to read research and be on top of everything we own and might own. While there are definitely many times when a PM will ask "What do you see out there in X, Y and Z?... OK, go buy 100mm in X". More often, however, we are expected to prepare scenarios and trade ideas and make recommendations. We manage too many funds for our PMs to handle all the strategy for each, so many of our investing decisions are a result of our analysis. Every firm is different. I know of another shop that doesn't hire traders and the PMs do all the trading. But I do think the traders on our desk are expected to be more involved than at other shops.
 
"cuz at lotz of shopz analysts be the shite, while traderz merely execute"

Thats an execution trader. Thats not the same thing at all as "Trader."
 
In 1996 I made the move from middle to front office. I had been in the middle office for two years prior to the move. Make no mistake this is a big leap as virtually everyone in the middle office has high hopes of moving into the lucrative front office. This is how I did it.

1. I made sure I stood out in the middle office. I did this by purposely searching for problems that irritated the front office traders and I fixed them.
2. I made sure the traders saw my face everyday.
3. On numerous occasions I joined the front office for drinks (usually uninvited) and I got to know them socially.
4. I purposefully stepped out of my middle office role and searched for things I could do to help support the trading desk. I did this by setting aside time each day to talk with traders (ie showing my face everyday). It did not take long before I was providing front office support in addition to my middle office role. I made sure this added work load did not effect the quality of my middle office work.
5. I made sure the managing director knew of my ambition.

Took two years but it paid off big. Hope this helps.
 
"3. On numerous occasions I joined the front office for drinks (usually uninvited) and I got to know them socially."

While I see the point of your strategy, I would caution that inviting yourself out for drinks with other people could back fire.
 
well unless its a private party u could "just happen" to be there for drinks as well with somebody else .. either ways i guess tht is a good way of getting ur face out there ..
 
Maverick22 Fortune favors the bold, especially in this business
 
WATTS - thanx for sharing the info, that is what I am going to do since it is sorta difficult to become a trader/pm from the street. What did you do being in the middle office? Does that experience help you in any way today?
 
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